(07-22-2021, 01:04 PM)Dragoslav Vaykos Wrote: Paco Munyano is the friend of Carlie Wailer. Paco Munyano was pked (approved by Somespy - Don Order) when Carlie was not on. (IC not in city) He was pked by a random cartel member passing by. Somespy can confirm this if he witnessed the pk.

Paco Munyano later came back on his newly made character and started to harass us.

My reaction: Did you report him for doing that?

We even clip an instance where he said he was going to snitch even tho he just got pked. (https://medal.tv/clips/57982997/d13377a1kjCX)
My reaction: Where is his Affidavit, if he snitched?

Fast forward to this week, where his freind Carlie Wailer writes an affidavit containing metagamed info, which will be proven. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C3oc...uddbM/edit). Adam clark, the detective dealing with this case admitted that Carlie Wailer only snitched because we pked his friend, which he had no IC knowledge of, we didnt even announce it in our RIP chat.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png).
My reaction: How would you know that he had no IC knowledge? How would you know he didn't predict this and by him disappearing he went to the PD, because he expected to be the next, because why would you just PK a guy that only hanged around another guy who was prob. his in real life friend?
Also did you plan in killing the guy?




Carlie Wailer: This person is a german guy who dont really speak much english hence his german affidavit.
My response: He is not german, he is dutch.


This player, which I was informed by my members, is someone who does his thing by himself or with his friend Paco.

He does not approach us and all he do is buy H and sell it.
My response: if he sells heroin, why didn't he put it in the Affidavit?

He does not have my f3, yet he said I was the faction owner. The only interaction I had with him in game was when I asked for his f3 once recruited.


Again, he is not in contact with other members and is a lone wolf probably due to the language barrier.




The Affadavit: "weed is traded at 1w-1h+ 700$" This information was metagamed. This deal originated on 04/1/2021 with Cali Cartel. This information was in a discord channel in my faction discord and was an ooc channel used to help new players. Literally called "How to guide". Back in the time the information was not really told to the players.

Occasinally it was explained to new recruits, we would say "join this discord" "here the deal and gl".
My response: So your telling me that you are giving people upon recruitment something that is IC a discord server (which would contain IC and OOC things) and then show them the how-to, which is then strictly OOC info? This is just a scummy way of you avoiding getting caught by LEOs and abusing Discord. The how-to needs to be taken IC.

This deal has not been a thing for a long amount of time. We do not use it as our ally, Cali Cartel, no longer exist following a war. As the screenshot shows the link is invalid as we no longer used that discord for months now. Cali went to war 05/29/202, Carlie Wailer joined 06/15/2021. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png The dates do not match  on the screen shot and I will explain why.

"cocaine 1s 3h-2c+600$". This deal is even older than the cali, it came from the bonnano which we left 05/18/2021. The discord was called Bonano Enterprise owned by mikvik before his fall. Again, he joined 06/15/2021. The only placed this deal is talked about is in discord chats when mfs argue for their prices. Which I can provide if needed.
My Response: So you are telling me that the informant can't take the information of discord where very important IC matters are discussed and that is metagame? And so you said it yourself that the informant was involved in heroin trade, that could still make us believe that he knew that information.

Update: These discords were not used for ic shit it was used to find some1 to contact to then trade ic in game.
My Response: "Finding someone to contact to then trade ic in game" is not a IC matter?

"don Manuel Antonio is the faction owner".
1. Lmfao  no calls me that
My Response: Why are you calling yourself that on discord? Don is something that can be used universally and also by you claiming he has little to no contact with other Cartel members, you can claim that he doesn't not know the structure of a cartel and just calls all the bosses of a crime organisation Dons.

2. He does not have my f3 and I have talked to him once where I simply asked for his f3. This is a clear attempt to pin this on the faction leader by metagaming.
My Response: Maybe someone told him that? Maybe he listened in on someones discussion. Maybe you told him your name and your position.

"“The animal” (nickname) is also a lawyer and motel manager" This is just wrong Animal aka Carlos Escobar is a fkn legal advisor not a motel manager. If this was a legit CI he would have fkn known shit Ig this can be dealt in IC
My response: How could it be that the informant did not have any connections to members of the cartel and is a "lone wolf", but know the nickname of a person and knew that the guy was a lawyer?

In our Scenario, this metagamed affadivit obtained a warrant, that warrant got a siezure for the motel. The affadavit dont even matter at this point since the IRL Good faith exception (but abusive in gmod) makes the evidence admissible.
My response: Let's say all of the things you mentioned were metagamed, this still wouldn't throw out the Warrant, due to it containing information that I assume is truthful, because you didn't mention it.

Summary: Metagamed affadavit with fake ooc and ic info is made, warrant is obtained, search is done and motel is siezed. Evidence cant be taken out because of an abusive Good Faith exception (in gmod terms, Good faith means that it dont matter if the info is good or not or even if its metagamed, it can still be used if the cop followed the law). Also the detective didnt even take time to investigate at all, that idk why.
My Resonse: Good faith doesn't excuse metagame.

Fast forward to now where 3.6 million $ motel is siezed and drugs are taken from members bank account  from a metagamed affidavit.
My response: Info on an affidavit can be metagamed, but clearly not all info in this affidavit is not metagamed, but let's say all the things you claimed were metagamed, the seizure still would still happen.




My Summary: Most of the info that is called as metagame was from Discord, a discord where IC stuff is discussed, but everything that could be incriminating is OOC as the guild on how to do trade, which is apparently outdated, but was edited, which can clearly be seen on the screenshot. How could it be that when recruiting somebody you send them a discord and then they read in an OOC channel how to do IC deals. This is just abusive and trying to get shit voided.

Furthermore I wanted to ask is this language barrier of his a IC thing or OOC?

(07-22-2021, 01:04 PM)Dragoslav Vaykos Wrote: Paco Munyano is the friend of Carlie Wailer. Paco Munyano was pked (approved by Somespy - Don Order) when Carlie was not on. (IC not in city) He was pked by a random cartel member passing by. Somespy can confirm this if he witnessed the pk.

Paco Munyano later came back on his newly made character and started to harass us.

My reaction: Did you report him for doing that?

We even clip an instance where he said he was going to snitch even tho he just got pked. (https://medal.tv/clips/57982997/d13377a1kjCX)
My reaction: Where is his Affidavit, if he snitched?

Fast forward to this week, where his freind Carlie Wailer writes an affidavit containing metagamed info, which will be proven. (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1C3oc...uddbM/edit). Adam clark, the detective dealing with this case admitted that Carlie Wailer only snitched because we pked his friend, which he had no IC knowledge of, we didnt even announce it in our RIP chat.
(https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png).
My reaction: How would you know that he had no IC knowledge? How would you know he didn't predict this and by him disappearing he went to the PD, because he expected to be the next, because why would you just PK a guy that only hanged around another guy who was prob. his in real life friend?
Also did you plan in killing the guy?




Carlie Wailer: This person is a german guy who dont really speak much english hence his german affidavit.
My response: He is not german, he is dutch.


This player, which I was informed by my members, is someone who does his thing by himself or with his friend Paco.

He does not approach us and all he do is buy H and sell it.
My response: if he sells heroin, why didn't he put it in the Affidavit?

He does not have my f3, yet he said I was the faction owner. The only interaction I had with him in game was when I asked for his f3 once recruited.


Again, he is not in contact with other members and is a lone wolf probably due to the language barrier.




The Affadavit: "weed is traded at 1w-1h+ 700$" This information was metagamed. This deal originated on 04/1/2021 with Cali Cartel. This information was in a discord channel in my faction discord and was an ooc channel used to help new players. Literally called "How to guide". Back in the time the information was not really told to the players.

Occasinally it was explained to new recruits, we would say "join this discord" "here the deal and gl".
My response: So your telling me that you are giving people upon recruitment something that is IC a discord server (which would contain IC and OOC things) and then show them the how-to, which is then strictly OOC info? This is just a scummy way of you avoiding getting caught by LEOs and abusing Discord. The how-to needs to be taken IC.

This deal has not been a thing for a long amount of time. We do not use it as our ally, Cali Cartel, no longer exist following a war. As the screenshot shows the link is invalid as we no longer used that discord for months now. Cali went to war 05/29/202, Carlie Wailer joined 06/15/2021. https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/5...nknown.png The dates do not match  on the screen shot and I will explain why.

"cocaine 1s 3h-2c+600$". This deal is even older than the cali, it came from the bonnano which we left 05/18/2021. The discord was called Bonano Enterprise owned by mikvik before his fall. Again, he joined 06/15/2021. The only placed this deal is talked about is in discord chats when mfs argue for their prices. Which I can provide if needed.
My Response: So you are telling me that the informant can't take the information of discord where very important IC matters are discussed and that is metagame? And so you said it yourself that the informant was involved in heroin trade, that could still make us believe that he knew that information.

Update: These discords were not used for ic shit it was used to find some1 to contact to then trade ic in game.
My Response: "Finding someone to contact to then trade ic in game" is not a IC matter?

"don Manuel Antonio is the faction owner".
1. Lmfao  no calls me that
My Response: Why are you calling yourself that on discord? Don is something that can be used universally and also by you claiming he has little to no contact with other Cartel members, you can claim that he doesn't not know the structure of a cartel and just calls all the bosses of a crime organisation Dons.

2. He does not have my f3 and I have talked to him once where I simply asked for his f3. This is a clear attempt to pin this on the faction leader by metagaming.
My Response: Maybe someone told him that? Maybe he listened in on someones discussion. Maybe you told him your name and your position.

"“The animal” (nickname) is also a lawyer and motel manager" This is just wrong Animal aka Carlos Escobar is a fkn legal advisor not a motel manager. If this was a legit CI he would have fkn known shit Ig this can be dealt in IC
My response: How could it be that the informant did not have any connections to members of the cartel and is a "lone wolf", but know the nickname of a person and knew that the guy was a lawyer?

In our Scenario, this metagamed affadivit obtained a warrant, that warrant got a siezure for the motel. The affadavit dont even matter at this point since the IRL Good faith exception (but abusive in gmod) makes the evidence admissible.
My response: Let's say all of the things you mentioned were metagamed, this still wouldn't throw out the Warrant, due to it containing information that I assume is truthful, because you didn't mention it.

Summary: Metagamed affadavit with fake ooc and ic info is made, warrant is obtained, search is done and motel is siezed. Evidence cant be taken out because of an abusive Good Faith exception (in gmod terms, Good faith means that it dont matter if the info is good or not or even if its metagamed, it can still be used if the cop followed the law). Also the detective didnt even take time to investigate at all, that idk why.
My Resonse: Good faith doesn't excuse metagame.

Fast forward to now where 3.6 million $ motel is siezed and drugs are taken from members bank account  from a metagamed affidavit.
My response: Info on an affidavit can be metagamed, but clearly not all info in this affidavit is not metagamed, but let's say all the things you claimed were metagamed, the seizure still would still happen.




My Summary: Most of the info that is called as metagame was from Discord, a discord where IC stuff is discussed, but everything that could be incriminating is OOC as the guild on how to do trade, which is apparently outdated, but was edited, which can clearly be seen on the screenshot. How could it be that when recruiting somebody you send them a discord and then they read in an OOC channel how to do IC deals. This is just abusive and trying to get shit voided.

Furthermore I wanted to ask is this language barrier of his a IC thing or OOC?

(07-28-2021, 03:10 PM)Cocohop Wrote: "When you've run into a wall with no place to go, return to the basics." -Miles Edgeworth.
The basics in this instance are as follows:
The Affidavit was notarised by an interested party. This is not allowed.
To identify someone, one of the following circumstances need to have happened:
Ways to Identify someone IC'ly:
  -You have their F3
  -They Identify themselves to you, verbally giving you their full name / unique nickname
  -Someone who has their F3 Identifies them to you
  -You have viewed their ID card or searched their person (See Police rules section)
  -If someone has committed an offense against you (Act of violence, mugging, etc) you may recognize them based on their voice and clothing for up to 20 minutes afterwards. Players may change clothes or lay low during this time to avoid recognition.
I don't think any of the above circumstances applied.
Certainly one could argue the good faith exception (even though this is an OOC issue), but the good faith exception clearly states that the police MUST be acting in good faith, measured by the reasonable person rule (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasonable_person). I am of the opinion that a reasonable person certainly would have asked how the man identified the don as being Antonio Manuel or whatever his name is.
On the topic of discord. Here is a quote from Don Manuel: "Update: These discords were not used for ic shit it was used to find some1 to contact to then trade ic in game.". 
This is not allowed and will be considered IC as per the following rule: "However to cover the fact that some people may use this to skirt the rules if IC conversations are specified by both parties or is obviously done in IC in DMs (Example: A sale or deal that would take place in IC after discord confirmation) then it can be considered as IC by the reviewing Admins."
Therefore, to summarize: 
The affidavit was not notarised correctly.
The evidence naming the people directly is null and void as it fails the recognition test. 
The evidence gathered via discord is IC. You may not put "this is ooc" in an attempt to avoid LEOs.
The Good Faith exception applies if a reasonable person believes the evidence to be true. Would a reasonable person believe this to be true? I am of the opinion that a reasonable person would ask more questions before initiating procedures. And if someone obtained a name via discord, then the OOC/IC test must apply. Did they obtain it by looking on the sidebar? That would be OOC. Or did the person directly talk to the criminal informant and tell them their name? That would be IC.