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+---- Thread: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. (/showthread.php?tid=2480)
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Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - Garfielf - 11-08-2021
Your Name: Garfielf (Character's name: Dion Donovan)
Your SteamID STEAM_0:1:42966567
Reason for ban: Mass RDM.
Length of ban: 2 weeks.
Reason for appeal (dispute/apology): I believe the admins acted in bad Faith and I believe the reasoning does not qualify for the specific rule I've broken.
Why should you be unbanned? I was banned for Murdering 4 men inside of a car (the video showed only 4 people I don't see a 5th but I could be wrong, if anyone see's a 5th dude please point it out and I'll edit this) I murdered these men as previously they had threatened me with weapons and made implicit threats on my life. this act of violent threats with the weapons also present means that violence was likely to happen. I eventually hunted them down after putting on a disguise and killed them.
Edit: After having a look, I killed the Initial guy standing by the car, two men in the back. the driver, and a fifth man who Jumped out the car and fired on me before dying. My mistake and it's hard to see in the video but theirs a whiteshirt who must have been in the car near the back. about 21 seconds in though it's literally for a split second and incredibly easy to miss.
the question we're discussing here the rulebreak on rules and disrespect within the case of Murdering someone.
I Believe with the threat of Violence present deciding to kill them later on is not against server rules as it operates within the second park of RDM rule 2 instead of it being a violation of rule 2 itself. and I've been told in the past that in this specific instance it falls within the second half of rule 2 and not the first.
Now onto the admin sit as this was personally one of the weakest most rushed sits I've been apart of on this server.
I was dragged to a sit by a staff and immediately frozen, he was aggressive and prodding in his questions demanding answers for why I killed them. I was busy (and had made a @ with this explicte thought in mind telling them I was busy and might be slow to respond) and he froze and got read to ban me. I came back and told him I was here and calmly told him I was going to explain my point. he unfroze me and we start talking about it, he gets aggressive and sounds more like he's trying to catch me out then he's an impartial third party (as you'd expect most staff to be) he also sounded clearly agitated and might have even been in the car itself (I don't know) which would explain why he was so aggressive. (his name was Kash Zedong)
With him being aggressive and sounded verbally irritated and like he was just trying to grab a reason for the ban I requested another staff to speak with me where Strech arrived. we spoke to Strech about it who was the perfect Gentlemen and he called somespy. Somespy and me do not have a good history and he doesn't like me or other staff members and has done an incredibly large amount of passive aggressive things in the past towards both my faction and me personally. he took the sit was and given my reasons (I wrote them in a block text) and he was sent it. he said nothing and threw me a ban without talking to anybody.
I feel the staff apart from Strech didn't want to talk about what happened and where just itching for a ban as one was hyper-agigated and the other staff was in the sit for all of 2 minutes, read a small paragraph I wrote, spoke to nobody. and approved a 2 week ban on me.
at the very least I'd have liked someone like stretch to have handled the affair instead of two staff who have both shown to be verbally aggressive and another one who has personal reasons why he'd not consider something (as genuinely serious as a MRDM case) with any tact or even talk to anyone in the sit itself.
this was also my one and only offence of this kind and it was conducted in a way where it fits into a character attack more then me firing into a crowd of unknowing people. (see the video below of me killing them)
Please let me know what you think and if the reasoning is justified as overall this feels like a rushed haphazard admin sit for something incredibly serious with absolutely zero consideration given to both sides who really only had one persons word against another.
Additional Information (images, videos, etc): https://medal.tv/clips/70801107/d1337Yu2chjF?invite=cr-MSxTMlUsMjIyNjkzMTAs
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - kash - 11-08-2021
Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - Garfielf - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:12 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
it's totally okay with me. however I felt the situation was very tense from the moment we got in and it felt even more rushed. however the rules do not mention stabbing range at all it states that "-However if someone continues to disrespect you, you may physically intimidate or hit them. (Fists, melee weapon)" and follows that: "As continued disrespect could realistically start a fight. The user then has free choice on how to respond/retaliate. If they choose to flee you may not kill them" in this instance I believe the fact they threatened me and the rules saying they only have to have the implicit threat of violence being present for me to respond how I desire means I was in the right to kill them. the issue I have is that I had no evidence to support me (clips etc) but neither did they other then their Opinion and the clip clearing showing they never attempting to kill me once. hence why I feel this was invalid, I'd like to apologise for this making it seem like you where aggressive as you've shown a lot of maturity here and that might not have been the case, but even so the sit was rushed and the evidence was either way. and the rules explictely supports my understanding of the situation. The Key word here for the sake of our discussion is the word "You may choose to intimidate OR Hit them" not just hit them where you might have gotten confused.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - kash - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:18 AM)Garfielf Wrote:Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.(11-08-2021, 02:12 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
it's totally okay with me. however I felt the situation was very tense from the moment we got in and it felt even more rushed. however the rules do not mention stabbing range at all it states that "-However if someone continues to disrespect you, you may physically intimidate or hit them. (Fists, melee weapon)" and follows that: "As continued disrespect could realistically start a fight. The user then has free choice on how to respond/retaliate. If they choose to flee you may not kill them" in this instance I believe the fact they threatened me and the rules saying they only have to have the implicit threat of violence being present for me to respond how I desire means I was in the right to kill them. the issue I have is that I had no evidence to support me (clips etc) but neither did they other then their Opinion and the clip clearing showing they never attempting to kill me once. hence why I feel this was invalid, I'd like to apologise for this making it seem like you where aggressive as you've shown a lot of maturity here and that might not have been the case, but even so the sit was rushed and the evidence was either way. and the rules explictely supports my understanding of the situation. The Key word here for the sake of our discussion is the word "You may choose to intimidate OR Hit them" not just hit them where you might have gotten confused.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - Garfielf - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:23 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:18 AM)Garfielf Wrote:Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.(11-08-2021, 02:12 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
it's totally okay with me. however I felt the situation was very tense from the moment we got in and it felt even more rushed. however the rules do not mention stabbing range at all it states that "-However if someone continues to disrespect you, you may physically intimidate or hit them. (Fists, melee weapon)" and follows that: "As continued disrespect could realistically start a fight. The user then has free choice on how to respond/retaliate. If they choose to flee you may not kill them" in this instance I believe the fact they threatened me and the rules saying they only have to have the implicit threat of violence being present for me to respond how I desire means I was in the right to kill them. the issue I have is that I had no evidence to support me (clips etc) but neither did they other then their Opinion and the clip clearing showing they never attempting to kill me once. hence why I feel this was invalid, I'd like to apologise for this making it seem like you where aggressive as you've shown a lot of maturity here and that might not have been the case, but even so the sit was rushed and the evidence was either way. and the rules explictely supports my understanding of the situation. The Key word here for the sake of our discussion is the word "You may choose to intimidate OR Hit them" not just hit them where you might have gotten confused.
The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - kash - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:24 AM)Garfielf Wrote:It is not a physical confrontation until someone is hit, which logs showed none of them attacking you at the time.(11-08-2021, 02:23 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:18 AM)Garfielf Wrote:Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.(11-08-2021, 02:12 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
it's totally okay with me. however I felt the situation was very tense from the moment we got in and it felt even more rushed. however the rules do not mention stabbing range at all it states that "-However if someone continues to disrespect you, you may physically intimidate or hit them. (Fists, melee weapon)" and follows that: "As continued disrespect could realistically start a fight. The user then has free choice on how to respond/retaliate. If they choose to flee you may not kill them" in this instance I believe the fact they threatened me and the rules saying they only have to have the implicit threat of violence being present for me to respond how I desire means I was in the right to kill them. the issue I have is that I had no evidence to support me (clips etc) but neither did they other then their Opinion and the clip clearing showing they never attempting to kill me once. hence why I feel this was invalid, I'd like to apologise for this making it seem like you where aggressive as you've shown a lot of maturity here and that might not have been the case, but even so the sit was rushed and the evidence was either way. and the rules explictely supports my understanding of the situation. The Key word here for the sake of our discussion is the word "You may choose to intimidate OR Hit them" not just hit them where you might have gotten confused.
The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - Garfielf - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:33 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:24 AM)Garfielf Wrote:It is not a physical confrontation until someone is hit, which logs showed none of them attacking you at the time.(11-08-2021, 02:23 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:18 AM)Garfielf Wrote:Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.(11-08-2021, 02:12 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Hey, I'm Kash. The first admin in the sit. I will go ahead and apologize for slightly rushing the sit, as there were many open at the time.
This clip by the way just shows you gunning down them all, which is why you were banned.
According to what 3 of them told me, you just ran up and gunned them all down with an AK. By looking at logs it seemed you had killed 5 within the span of 1-2 minutes, not even.
From what you had said in the sit, at first you said they were verbally threatening you, and then you said that they did it with a knife (which they have to be in stabbing range for anything to apply there), but I did not take your word as factual due to the fact that there was no clip, and you had changed your story.
When you asked for another staff member, you got Stretch (fellow Moderator) and then Somespy (Super Admin). I got cleared to ban you so I banned you after both had spoken to you. Please note that you may not kill for diss, and also the reason your ban was 2 weeks was due to the fact you already had 2 notes for RDM and it was 5 people that you just gunned down for a verbal confrontation.
Now if they would've threatened you with guns, then this would've been a different story. But I could not find anything on them damaging you prior, which is why I decided to punish you.
Like said, I do apologize if I came off as a little rude, I've had a long day overall today and there were MANY other tickets, so I was trying to get this one done and go on to the next.
Please remember in the future that you may not kill for disrespect.
it's totally okay with me. however I felt the situation was very tense from the moment we got in and it felt even more rushed. however the rules do not mention stabbing range at all it states that "-However if someone continues to disrespect you, you may physically intimidate or hit them. (Fists, melee weapon)" and follows that: "As continued disrespect could realistically start a fight. The user then has free choice on how to respond/retaliate. If they choose to flee you may not kill them" in this instance I believe the fact they threatened me and the rules saying they only have to have the implicit threat of violence being present for me to respond how I desire means I was in the right to kill them. the issue I have is that I had no evidence to support me (clips etc) but neither did they other then their Opinion and the clip clearing showing they never attempting to kill me once. hence why I feel this was invalid, I'd like to apologise for this making it seem like you where aggressive as you've shown a lot of maturity here and that might not have been the case, but even so the sit was rushed and the evidence was either way. and the rules explictely supports my understanding of the situation. The Key word here for the sake of our discussion is the word "You may choose to intimidate OR Hit them" not just hit them where you might have gotten confused.
The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.
The Rules state a Physical confrontation is when they brandish weapons Or hit me. the Or is what makes it either Mass RDM or a case of me responding to their Escalation.
and when you examine the evidence the reasoning I give fits the category of it being brandishing weapons (even the category of melee weapons) which would justify this type of response.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - kash - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:35 AM)Garfielf Wrote:FearRP Rule 5. For FearRP to apply with a knife the perpetrator must be within stabbing distance.(11-08-2021, 02:33 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:24 AM)Garfielf Wrote:It is not a physical confrontation until someone is hit, which logs showed none of them attacking you at the time.(11-08-2021, 02:23 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.
The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.
The Rules state a Physical confrontation is when they brandish weapons Or hit me. the Or is what makes it either Mass RDM or a case of me responding to their Escalation.
and when you examine the evidence the reasoning I give fits the category of it being brandishing weapons (even the category of melee weapons) which would justify this type of response.
You may only kill them if they start the confrontation, say if they hit you. But logs did not show you getting hit. Unless they had a gun pointed SPECIFICALLY at you or they were in stabbing distance with a knife, then you may not kill them.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - Garfielf - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:50 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:35 AM)Garfielf Wrote:FearRP Rule 5. For FearRP to apply with a knife the perpetrator must be within stabbing distance.(11-08-2021, 02:33 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:24 AM)Garfielf Wrote:It is not a physical confrontation until someone is hit, which logs showed none of them attacking you at the time.(11-08-2021, 02:23 AM)vKarmix Wrote: Verbal confrontations doesn't mean you can just roll up on them and gun them down, you should've at least tried and RPed by verbally confronting them and seeing what they do.
The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.
The Rules state a Physical confrontation is when they brandish weapons Or hit me. the Or is what makes it either Mass RDM or a case of me responding to their Escalation.
and when you examine the evidence the reasoning I give fits the category of it being brandishing weapons (even the category of melee weapons) which would justify this type of response.
You may only kill them if they start the confrontation, say if they hit you. But logs did not show you getting hit. Unless they had a gun pointed SPECIFICALLY at you or they were in stabbing distance with a knife, then you may not kill them.
I wasn't banned for breaking the Fear RP rule. I was banned for RDMing people without reason. that would make it me violating the Killing Rules (Rule 2 specifically) if I broke Fear RP in that instance with the circumstances you described that'd have been fine, but it wasn't. it was a Killing we discussed. I think your fundamental problem here for this RP situation and what happened afterwards is purely a fundamental misunderstanding of what rule your enforcing.
your not enforcing fear RP, your enforcing RDM. and when they used a Knife that allowed me to kill them as per rule 2. which is why I'm stating your wrong and why I think you made a mistake.
RE: Dion Donovan/Garfielf Unban request. - kash - 11-08-2021
(11-08-2021, 02:56 AM)Garfielf Wrote:But the whole reason this started was over VERBAL threats. Unless they hit you or FearRP'd you, you can't just fucking gun them down, knife out or not. You should've responded by threatening them back then and there. Also, if they weren't charging you with the melee weapons you can't kill them either.(11-08-2021, 02:50 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:35 AM)Garfielf Wrote:FearRP Rule 5. For FearRP to apply with a knife the perpetrator must be within stabbing distance.(11-08-2021, 02:33 AM)vKarmix Wrote:(11-08-2021, 02:24 AM)Garfielf Wrote: The Problem I have with this framing is that it wasn't a Verbal Confrontation, it got Physical once the weapons where Present which shows they escalated. However I will definitely admit there was better ways to RP this circumstance then just clapping them after the threat I won't deny that. but I still believe when you examine the rules as they are written it's clear I was within the rules, and again have used this exact reasoning in the past during other admin sits with no issues.It is not a physical confrontation until someone is hit, which logs showed none of them attacking you at the time.
The Rules state a Physical confrontation is when they brandish weapons Or hit me. the Or is what makes it either Mass RDM or a case of me responding to their Escalation.
and when you examine the evidence the reasoning I give fits the category of it being brandishing weapons (even the category of melee weapons) which would justify this type of response.
You may only kill them if they start the confrontation, say if they hit you. But logs did not show you getting hit. Unless they had a gun pointed SPECIFICALLY at you or they were in stabbing distance with a knife, then you may not kill them.
I wasn't banned for breaking the Fear RP rule. I was banned for RDMing people without reason. that would make it me violating the Killing Rules (Rule 2 specifically) if I broke Fear RP in that instance with the circumstances you described that'd have been fine, but it wasn't. it was a Killing we discussed. I think your fundamental problem here for this RP situation and what happened afterwards is purely a fundamental misunderstanding of what rule your enforcing.
your not enforcing fear RP, your enforcing RDM. and when they used a Knife that allowed me to kill them as per rule 2. which is why I'm stating your wrong and why I think you made a mistake.